Solicitation of Interest and Discussion - New Poll

TOG · **Posted:** Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:26 pm

I've recently been throwing around the idea of 'league play', on top of our casual play.

It would work something like this. Over a 3 month period (which would be roughly 6 'play dates' for lack of a better term) you would be responsible for catching up to and playing six assigned opponents on our casual days. You would have to play at least 300 points of your 500 points all the way through the season.

You wouldn't have to make every play date to participate, you would just have to get your six assigned matches in, over the 3 months allotted.

Thoughts?

ej · **Posted:** Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:32 am

Sign me up.

paradox22 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:06 am

Sounds fun as HELLL.... sign me up!

Kahrma · **Posted:** Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:11 am

I'll play

another army?!? my wife/co-workers are gonna kill me...

Zack · **Joined:** Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:42 pm **Posts:** 22

There used to be Warhammer campaign rules that would be great if they could be adapted somehow to HS.

The rules were something like everyone got their 500 point army's but there were restrictions. For example no unique squads, unique heroes, no squads over 100 points and no large figures.

Then we created a large map that had different "objectives" (For example a certain objective would allow you to 0-1 unique heroes to fight for your army where another one might allow you two unique squads) Then folks would attack or defend on those certain spaces. We even had some that gave an extra 50 points or a castle to defend from. I remember checking the JPG map every day to see if someone had knocked control away of an important area.

We also had some rule in place that after you had played 2-4 games in a week you had a chance to fortify and bring extra troops to a battle. That discouraged 5-6 people from all attacking the same important hex and making a guy defend it 5-6 times/week. (As if you were the 3rd or 4th person to attack someone they were going to be bringing 20% more troops to the fight.

It was a great time as it really made for unique battles but I don't know how it would be adapted to Heroscape. Maybe you could have any units with a Heroscapers power ranking of C or worse always be available and the A/B units had to be obtained through controlling certain points on the map.

TOG · **Posted:** Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:44 am

Here is a set of rules from the Long Island Heroscape League:

Quote:

I LEAGUE RANKINGS
Teams are ranked by points, with tie-breaking in favor of the team with the fewest games played.

II SCORING
1) 2-player games
Win = 4 points
Loss = 1 point

2) Multiplayer games
2 pts. + 2 pts. for each opponent beaten

For example, in a 3-player game, players would receive 6, 4, and 2 points. In a 4-player game, they would receive 8, 6, 4, and 2 points.

3)Tie games score 2 pts. for all players, regardless of # of players.

4) Variant games (i.e. games with rulesets that change game play significantly, such as using command cards or gear) score 2 points for each player, regardless of outcome.

III LEAGUE FINALS
The top 4 teams in the league that have each played at least 8 games will face off in a round-robin tournament. Best record wins, with tie-breaking determined by point dominance within the final six games. Further ties will be broken by single hero unit battle to the death.

Maps, scenarios, and army sizes to be used in the finals are to be determined; there will be at least one map for each team in the finals.

IV DRAFTING
1) Teams will be comprised of up to 1500 points of units. Units available for drafting include all official units from the Rise of the Valkyrie through Swarm of the Marro, inclusive, including Heroscape Marvel and Gen Con exclusive figures.

2) The league will comprise a single division for drafting purposes so long as it contains no more than 8 teams. The league will be split into just as many divisions as needed to retain a cap of 8 teams per draft division. If the number of teams is greater than eight but not evenly divisible by eight, leagues will be split so that the number of players per league is as even as possible.

3) Drafting will be of individual units (i.e. a single hero or squad).

4) All drafts will be unique - once a player has drafted a unit, no other player may draft it.
4a) For units for which there are multiple versions (i.e. Raelin, Sgt. Drake), all versions are draftable, however no player may draft more than one version of any unit.

5) Copies of units designated "common" may be drafted as many times as draftees wish, but they must supply any extra copies not already provided by the league.

6) Drafting will proceed as follows:
A random order list will be generated of each 8-player division, with each team numbered from 1 through 8.
Drafting will be in a rotating serpentine. On round 1 we draft in numerical order, from 1-8. In round 2, we reverse numerical order, from 8-1.
For each following pair of rounds, the order gets shifted over by two places; 7 and 8 become 1 and 2, respectively, and all others shift up two. Then the serpentine draft is repeated.

So:
Rounds 1 and 2 - 12345678, (87654321)
Rounds 3 and 4 - 78123456, (65432187)
Rounds 5 and 6 - 56781234, (43218765)
Rounds 7 and 8 - 34567812, (21876543)

Thus for every 8 rounds of drafting, everyone is in each position (1-8) once. On round 9, we are back at round 1.

7) If at any time any unit/s are unanimously decided to be broken/unplayable, any player who has previously drafted that unit may immediately replace it with any undrafted unit/s up to a maximum of 150% of the unit/s value (including drafted duplicates if it is a common card), so long as that player's total roster does not go over 110% of the original draft total.
7a) If multiple units are simultaneously removed from play, all players will replace their lost units according to the format of auxiliary drafting, in VI 3 below.
7b) A vote will be held to determine the status of Marvel Hero figures in the league, not earlier than Dec. 1, 2007, and not later than Jan. 15, 2008.

V TRADES
1) Trades may be made between the end of drafting and December 1, 2007.

2) All agreed-upon trades must be publicly posted in the forum.

3) Players may only trade units currently in their roster, although three (or more) way trades are permissible.

4) A team's roster may be increased up to a maximum of 110% of the points available for a team to draft. Thus if the draft maximum is 1500, the trading maximum is 1650.

VI AUXILIARY DRAFTS
1) If new figures become available mid-season, and all players agree, auxiliary drafting may occur. For the purpose of auxiliary drafting there are no roster point limits.

2) Auxiliary drafting will be held not less than one week from the first Sunday following the units becoming available to the league (i.e. they have been purchased and arrived).

3) The auxiliary draft will follow the same model as the original draft, except that the initial 1 through 8 order will be in reverse order of the players' point standings (i.e., the player with the worst record will have the first pick, and the player with the best record will have the last pick.) In the event of tying scores, the player who has played more games will go first.

VII GAMEPLAY

1) The host for any game day will be responsible for posting in advance the maps to be used on any given day. Maps may be selected from the official list of LI Heroscapers maps, to be posted on our website. A range of possible point values will be associated with each map, and the chosen value will be posted by the host. Michael will be primarily responsible for determining which maps are eligible for the official list and assigning a range of army values to each.

2) Players should attempt to arbitrate disputes among themselves. When required, rules judges will be Andrew, Bill, Jarett and Michael. No one may judge for a game they are playing. In the case of a dispute among judges, majority decision rules. If there is no majority, the players roll-off to decide.

3) All official Advanced Heroscape rules and rulings according to the Hasbro HS FAQ are in effect, with only the following modification: a unit attacking or defending against another unit gains height advantage if it meets BOTH of the following criteria:
(a) Its base is higher than the opposing figure's base; and
(b) Its total height (terrain + the figure's height as stated on its army card) is higher than the opposing figure's total height.

4) If agreed upon by both players, variant rulesets may be employed (note: this alters scoring. See II 4).

5) Point caps for games are strict. You may use fewer than the maximum number of points in your army, but not more.

6) If a player wishes to use a Marvel figure in his army, he must notify his opponent during army selection. If Marvel Hero figures are deemed balanced (via voting per IV 7b), this notification will not be required.

7) Games will be time-limited as follows: 75 minutes for games with armies up to 450 points, with 15 extra minutes for each additional 150 points or fraction thereof.

There are some changes I would make to this, but it appears to be a pretty good starting point. I especially like the draft idea.

paradox22 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:21 am

Sounds like it'd be perfect for our casual play days! Lets do it!

TOG · **Posted:** Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:37 pm

Another option would be a 'ladder' format, which basically, any given Sunday you could throw down the gauntlet to anyone ranked above you. This format has a lot less 'structure', and would lend itself well to varying degrees of attendance on game days.

ej · **Posted:** Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:41 pm

TOG wrote:

Another option would be a 'ladder' format, which basically, any given Sunday you could throw down the gauntlet to anyone ranked above you. This format has a lot less 'structure', and would lend itself well to varying degrees of attendance on game days.

That sounds easier to implement. Want to try that before going whole-hog with League Play?

TOG · **Posted:** Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:25 pm

removed.

Zack · **Joined:** Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:42 pm **Posts:** 22

I've played in several video game ladders, they are much nicer for varying attendance and allowing people to hop in at any given time. (And they allow for some people to play a lot and some to play not so much...)

TOG · **Posted:** Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:43 pm

I will try and organize more 'Scape specific ladder rules this evening. Of course, I was supposed to hve the dice done done by now too.

TOG · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:24 am

Those voting league, is it because I didn't explain the ladder well? I ask because I think a ladder would be easier to pull off for the reasons Zack mentioned...

paradox22 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:34 am

TOG wrote:

Those voting league, is it because I didn't explain the ladder well? I ask because I think a ladder would be easier to pull off for the reasons Zack mentioned...

No, I just prefer a more formal structure. I will definatly play in either though... you know I'm game for any excuse to sling dice! :twisted:

darkmantle · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:14 pm

I too would just prefer the league, though I would be fine with the ladder too, especially just to try it out. I do like the more structured idea of the league, and I like that everybody would play pretty much the same number of games. The ladder system sounds like its based purely on points unless there is a tie. So, person a plays 100 games and never wins a game, he is still going to have more points than the guy that won the only 5 games he played, right? Anyway, I'm up for anything, don't want to cause too much work since I won't be running it, but as far as which I would prefer to be in, I'm sticking with league.

TOG · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:50 pm

darkmantle wrote:

I too would just prefer the league, though I would be fine with the ladder too, especially just to try it out. I do like the more structured idea of the league, and I like that everybody would play pretty much the same number of games. The ladder system sounds like its based purely on points unless there is a tie. So, person a plays 100 games and never wins a game, he is still going to have more points than the guy that won the only 5 games he played, right? Anyway, I'm up for anything, don't want to cause too much work since I won't be running it, but as far as which I would prefer to be in, I'm sticking with league.

Actually, it's more of a 'king of the mountain' scenario, no points involved. If you win your game, you move to the rung above your opponent. The only goal being to get on top and stay on top.

My only opposition to a league format, is trying to figure out a way to accomodate varying attendance schedules, especially with tournaments coming up in March, April, and May.

TOG · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:17 pm

Revised Ladder rules for discussion:

Code:

Ladder Play Definition

Ladder Play is based upon an attacking/defending ladder rung system. Players may join ladders at their discretion and attempt to work their way to the top by attacking Players on "ladder rungs" above them. A successful result by the attacking Player results in them taking the spot or rung from the defending Player. In turn the defending Player falls to the next spot down. If the attacking Player loses the match then both Players stay at the rung they were on prior to the match. Players who are in an active challenge are the only Players that cannot be challenged. All other Players can be challenged and "must" accept any challenge made. Failure to do so could result in loss of rungs on the ladder or in removal from the ladder.

Heroscape Ladder matches are played using 500 point armies a single randomly generated map. The attacking player is responsible for bringing the map on which the match is to be played.

How to Join a Ladder

Each player participating in the ladder will compose a pool of 800 points.  Any match played will draw from that pool of 800 points.  Multiple commons count as multiple points.  For example, putting 3 squads of Stingers in your pool counts as 180 points towards the 800 point pool limit.  Once you have composed your pool, post it in the ‘Ladder Teams’ section of the forums.

Ladder Play Logistics

Issuing a Challenge
Players that have registered their pool, and do not have a pending challenge from another Player, are eligible to challenge up at any time. Challenges are issued through the Ladder forum, or during a ‘Casual Play’ session.  Please see the next section for details on how high up the ladder you can challenge. You will not be able to challenge Players that have another pending challenge, or have won a match within the last hour.

Ladder Movement
You can challenge anyone above you 5 slots or 50% of the remaining ladder from your current rank - whichever is lower. (Ex: Rung 15 can challenge rung 10. Rung 7 can challenge to rung 4. Rung 4 can challenge to rung 2). 

Challenge and Match Date Acceptance
There is a time limitation for match responses. This includes Acceptance of a Challenge and/or Date Acceptance. The deadline is the Thursday before the “Casual Play” date.

Map Selection
The map will be randomly selected by an admin from the maps listed in the BoV.  If the attacking player cannot build the selected map, map selection and building will fall to the defending player.  For example, if the randomly selected map was “Marr Highway”, and the attacking player did not have the RttFF expansion, the defending player can provide the map of his choice from the BoV.

Side Choice
The Defending Player has the right to pick their starting side for the match. It must be confirmed in the drop down box 24 hours prior to the start of the match. If the Defending Player does not select a starting side, it reverts to the Default (Defender = Defend, Challenger = Assault).

Match Communications
All Communications concerning Match Logistics must take place within the Ladder Foru

Zack · **Joined:** Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:42 pm **Posts:** 22

The ladders we used to play in gave nothing for a defeat.

Everyone had a ranking on the ladder (#1 - #x) and people that joined new were automatically rated at the bottom.

So lets say we had 18 people in the ladder and Tog was ranked #5. EJ joins the ladder (EJ is now #19) and beats Tog. He would gain half of the difference between their ranking. (Or 19 - 5 = 14; 14/2 = 7) So EJ would go from 19 to 12 if he beats Tog. If they play again EJ would go up 3 spaces. (5 - 12 / 2, rounded down)

So with two wins over Tog EJ has joined and moved up to #9.

Let's say Zack joins in (#20). He plays Andrew three times and loses so he's still at #20.

The games played really don't matter, it's all about the wins. There are software packs out there to allow you to self register and self report the games (I think it used to be that loser had to report them, I don't really recall)

The only big problems with a ladder were that occasionally folks at the top would try to duck out on games to keep their ranking (as nobody can move up if they don't beat someone higher ranked) and occasionally folks would refuse to play lower ranked players as there wasn't anything in it for them. (Beating lower ranked folks gives you nothing, you are just being benevolent and giving them a shot at you) Just based on the folks I've met I doubt either of these issues would be a big problem.

The other problem was it made it hard to try new things as everything was for rank. So if you wanted to try out the great Tarns/Dund/Taelord combo you might be screwing other people out of a rank. (As Zack get's a lucky win due to you trying something new and moves past someone) Really you have this problem with a league too though...

I voted for the ladder with the selfish motive that I won't be able to make it up to KC all that often but it would be a way for those of us slackers to participate in the action. I think the league would be really awesome to follow though if you guys decide to go that way.

paradox22 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:15 am

Both sound extremely fun...like I said, I'm definatly game for either!

Kahrma · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:24 pm

Although I'd like to see league play, I think a ladder would be easier to implement and run. It would also give new players a way to participate should they come in halfway through the "season".

Do you think a draft would be feasible for a ladder system? Each player could maintain a 1000 point (just an example) draft pool. A player may change his/her draft pool at any time, but must post all changes in the "ladder forum". Once a challenge is made, draft pools may not be changed by either contestant. On game day, each player brings his/her draft pool. The two contestants each draft 500 point armies drawing from BOTH draft pools.

Thought this might make things a bit more interesting, and might encourage the use of a greater variety of figures. Whaddya think?

Zack wrote:

The only big problems with a ladder were that occasionally folks at the top would try to duck out on games to keep their ranking (as nobody can move up if they don't beat someone higher ranked) and occasionally folks would refuse to play lower ranked players as there wasn't anything in it for them. (Beating lower ranked folks gives you nothing, you are just being benevolent and giving them a shot at you) Just based on the folks I've met I doubt either of these issues would be a big problem.

How 'bout something like this: A player moves down one rung after three consecutive unsuccessful upward challenges. This might encourage a more orderly progression of rank. Likewise, a player moves down one rung after declining two consecutive challenges - to encourage higher ranked players to accept challenges (not that I think it will be a problem in this group).

Zack wrote:

The other problem was it made it hard to try new things as everything was for rank. So if you wanted to try out the great Tarns/Dund/Taelord combo you might be screwing other people out of a rank. (As Zack get's a lucky win due to you trying something new and moves past someone) Really you have this problem with a league too though...

Even if we stick with pretty much pre-made armies, I think we'll be OK here. I'm sure we'll still be playing plenty of games outside the ladder. Our casual game days should still allow plenty of time to experiment with new figs, or mess around with stuff we wouldn't usually play competitively.

darkmantle · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:28 pm

if both people had Q9 in their draft pool, could they end up with a Q9 each, or would there be limitation to 1 unique per battle?

Kahrma · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:53 pm

darkmantle wrote:

if both people had Q9 in their draft pool, could they end up with a Q9 each, or would there be limitation to 1 unique per battle?

Each player could draft a Q9 in this case. The question is, do you want Q9 in your draft pool? - 'cause you won't necessarily be the one who gets to play him :twisted:

darkmantle · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:59 pm

Could be interesting, you would have to have both an army you hope to play, and a potentila counter to it in your draft pool in case they draw from your pile... intersting.

I think my pool will be 1000 points of rats 500 of rats and 500 of Nagrubs
Then I will just draft as much as I can out of their pool to screw up any strategies they may have in store. And with such a crummy pool to choose from maybe less people would challange me and knock me out of ... wait, they can't knock you off the bottom can they... ok new stratgey

darkmantle · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:04 pm

Ok question... wouldn't it come up a lot that you would not be able to get 500 points? I know I have a helluva time getting the numbers to come out to 500 even when I have plenty of time to work with it. With a draft, the other guy drafting even one of your figs and not having a fig in his pool of a similar value could royally screw you, couldn't it? I guess you could argue that it is part of the strategy, but I don't think I would enjoy that side of it, even if it meant the other guy is the guy that got screwed out of points.

ej · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:27 pm

Does it make more sense to just draft out of your own 1000pt pool? Seems more like an 'army' that way instead of just two random mobs fighting.

darkmantle · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:30 pm

I am thinking that would probably be better. You could still have 3 or 4 possible variations of an army depending on what you are facing, but if you draft in such a way that you can't get 500 even, thats just poor planning on your part

TOG · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:53 pm

ej wrote:

Does it make more sense to just draft out of your own 1000pt pool? Seems more like an 'army' that way instead of just two random mobs fighting.

That's what it says up there in green. You play 500 out your 800 point pool. I chose 800 as opposed to 1000, because 1000 would have allowed you to build 2 completely different armies. I took the idea from the Long Island Heroscapers league, except I think they do use 1000 in their pool.

I didn't bother converting the 'declining challenges' or 'forfeiting' rules. I figured everyone would just ridicule anyone who tried into playing, even if it did mean risking losing to a 9yo girl.

ej · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:32 pm

TOG wrote:

ej wrote:

Does it make more sense to just draft out of your own 1000pt pool? Seems more like an 'army' that way instead of just two random mobs fighting.

That's what it says up there in green. You play 500 out your 800 point pool. I chose 800 as opposed to 1000, because 1000 would have allowed you to build 2 completely different armies. I took the idea from the Long Island Heroscapers league, except I think they do use 1000 in their pool.

I didn't bother converting the 'declining challenges' or 'forfeiting' rules. I figured everyone would just ridicule anyone who tried into playing, even if it did mean risking losing to a 9yo girl.

I hadn't gotten to that yet before posting. Where's that Oops smiley?

Kahrma · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:53 pm

darkmantle wrote:

Ok question... wouldn't it come up a lot that you would not be able to get 500 points? I know I have a helluva time getting the numbers to come out to 500 even when I have plenty of time to work with it. With a draft, the other guy drafting even one of your figs and not having a fig in his pool of a similar value could royally screw you, couldn't it? I guess you could argue that it is part of the strategy, but I don't think I would enjoy that side of it, even if it meant the other guy is the guy that got screwed out of points.

Yep, could happen - I'd throw some "filler" into my pool to guard against this. Marro Warriors for 50, Rats @40, Eldgrim @30, Isamu - all of these will slot right into pretty much any build and won't take up much of your draft pool.

I think we'd see a little more unit variety with a true draft, but TOG's suggestion would give players a greater degree of control, while maintaining some flexibility.

paradox22 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:53 am

So... do we want to get this all set up so we can begin on Sunday the 9th? [smilie=hump.gif]

How do we set up the ladder rankings prior to any matches? Random ranking :?:

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